2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

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2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby DevXTech » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:26 am

Goals of modifications
Currently I've been more than satisfied with my Spec.B with the exception of the suspension department. It is lacking horribly in this area. My 1998 Saturn SL2 has better corning and handling than the Spec.B which is bad. When taking the twisty road near my apartment complex in the Spec.B I get massive amounts of body roll and understeer and have to slow down to 20MPH to be able to take the corners which have a speed limit of 30MPH. :shock: In my Saturn I can easily take the corners at 35MPH no question as to my cars ability to deliver me safely through the turns.

What I want out of the modifications is the following.
- Decreased roll
- Improved cornering
- Increased stiffness
- Decreased dive
- Decreased squat
- Adjustable ride feel
- All year round worthy suspension

Current Suspension Specs:
All bone stock with no modifications made. Front sway bar is 21mm stock and rear sway bar is 16mm stock. The endlinks are total weak sauce and are made of a "flimsy" material to quote a bunch of enthusiasts over at LegacyGT.com.

Here is what I'm thinking for upgrades this year on the Spec.B. Looking for feedback.

- F & R Sway bars 22mm (Any brand suggestions? I'm hoping a 22 f & r would make it neutral)
- Kartboy Endlinks
- BC Racing BR Coilovers 8k/6k w/ rear extenders for adjusting dampening

Any feedback or suggestions? Should I do swaybars before coilovers? My hope is to get this all done by the end of the year.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby cseaman » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:00 am

My BCs have definitely done good year round, but I don't know if they're what you're looking for with ride compliancy. I have mine at mid-stiffness cause I'm so low, and it's a pretty damn harsh car. I've never really had it any softer than where it's at though. If you don't plan on slamming the car, or really playing with the ride height, I'd just get springs and sways.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby WRXNFX » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:57 am

I would price sway bars and go cheap, or go big, mid ground seems like a waste. I had a whitline rear in the WRX which was starting to rust, and a Perrin front which looked brand new when I pulled it.

Maybe COBB?

Adjustable ride height is cool, but sways and springs will probably get you close for a lot less.

Kartboy endlinks are the way to do. I had a whitline rear on the WRX, it was cool, but the "steal" hardware was weak sauce, rusted big time.

BC are good and they are cheap, might not need better sways with coilovers..
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby legacychick » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:18 am

MSI makes endlinks that have a lifetime warranty. It seems like people on the LGT forums really like them.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128195
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby DevXTech » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:10 am

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. I definately hear the arguement about springs vs coilovers and have given it a lot of thought. My main reasons for wanting to go for a coilover setup is the ability for me to lock in a ride height I like rather than have a preset height that springs make it. Since I also plan on running this car at the track occasionally the coilovers will definately help on track days. Are coilovers really that much more harsh though compared to stiff springs? Maybe I need to ride in a car that has coilovers installed.

What sway bar brands are good other than Cobb? Cobb discontinued sway bars for the Legacy. I've heard good things about Perrin but noticed some didn't like that they aren't adjustable. So does adjustable really make a difference? Any other points of the suspension that might be worth looking at for upgrading?

legacychick wrote:MSI makes endlinks that have a lifetime warranty. It seems like people on the LGT forums really like them.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128195

I saw those endlinks but they closed the GB on them on the 31st of Janurary. I'll contact the vendor and see if how much they are without a group buy. 8)
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby legacychick » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:59 pm

According to Perrin's website, they are adjustable. Also make sure the rear sway bar comes with some sort of bracket. I'm sure you've heard of some stock brackets that bent when they upgraded their sways. Perrin used to include them with the rear bar, but I'm not sure if they still do. AVO also makes them, but they are $80!

BTW, if you get coilovers, will you be selling your bilsteins? :wink:

Oh, and the Perrin rear sway bar is only $90 on Perrin's site right now!
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby WRXNFX » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:26 pm

Adjustable is good, if you look in the directions, the stiffest to softest holes can be a 200% change.

One thing about coilover, you can dial in A ride height.

What I mean by that is they you cannot easily change ride height, because, A you need an alignment, B the adjustment parts of coilovers tend to get goofed up by age and wear and they are usually very hard to adjust in the future.

If the Spec B has bilsteins springs may be the way to go.. :)
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby LeggyGT-Rs » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:56 pm

Just sway bars to start with. that will help a billion percent.

then see if you need coilovers; I dont think you should PART with those awesome Bilstein struts of yours. they should be plenty performance for the occasional track day.

It surprises me that you are not comfortable in that car, I would think with the wide tires and that AWD you have you would be able to take the corners a little harder. Your Saturn does have a much shorter wheel base which will make it feel a lot different.



Oh, and what roads are you driving, I want to try them; I dont know of any good twisties out here.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby timsti » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Just sway bars to start with

+1. This will really help the body roll you are feeling. I won't pretend to understand how your car differs from mine, but I'll say that the Cobb sway bars on my 05 STi seemed to make a pretty big difference. I think they are 25mm hollow. I also don't have any experience in sway bar tuning but I doubt that sway bar adjustability will be very helpful for daily driving. For instance, Cobb suggests that on their adjustable sway rear bar you put it on soft or medium except for track days. I put it on medium and never adjusted, but maybe I'm just lazy. I do intend to change it to hard for the next track day I make it to before attempting to determine if I need a bigger bar. I seriously need to reduce the understeer being exhibited on this car. (The other function of anti-roll bars is to tune the handling balance of a car. Understeer or oversteer behavior can be tuned out by changing the proportion of the total roll stiffness that comes from the front and rear axles. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the front will increase the proportion of the total load transfer that the front axle reacts and decrease the proportion that the rear axle reacts. This will cause the outer front wheel to run at a comparatively higher slip angle, and the outer rear wheel to run at a comparatively lower slip angle, which is an understeer effect. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the rear axle will have the opposite effect and decrease understeer.)

My Cobb bars are rusting and they've been on for just about two years.
Good luck. Oh and I would also like to know about these twisty roads. Maybe we should have a meet and test drive each other's cars to see who's feels the best although I suspect WRXNFX might win right now with those new coils.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby Hydrolix » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:34 pm

I'll reiterate that your starting point should be sways. They will take care of your side/side body roll. Stiffer/shorter springs will take care of the pitching/diving. Start with the sways and add springs later if you want. I doubt you will want to go to coils for just a track event here/there.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby legacychick » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:56 pm

No, he wants coils so he can sell his struts to me! :lol: :wink:
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby DevXTech » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:11 pm

So sway bars, end links, bracket reinforcement, and possibly roll center adjustment kit will be first. Anyone have any problems with Perrin as far as rusting. I know WRXNFX you said your sway bar is still in good shape. How many years on it so far? I'm kind of leaning toward Perrin now that legacychick pointed out they are adjustable. Kartboy endlinks but I'm checking with MSI to see if I can get their endlinks with the lifetime warranty.

Now back to the spring vs coilover topic. I have been bouncing spring vs coilovers back and forth for awhile now and have been researching the issue far before I bought the car and I can't help get myself around the fact that I feel coilovers are a better investment. This is my current back and forth thinking about the two.

Coilovers:
I'd be able to make on the fly dampening changes for my spirited weekend drives through the twisty roads and turn it down when the doing my daily commute. If I went with coilovers I can properly account for my wider tires on the legacy. I can adjust the height of the car to account for the season and my driving style during that season. Coilovers are higher in price but can be rebuilt usually cheaper than new springs/strut combo would cost. I can sell the stock struts and springs to recoup the cost.

(Edit) Possible coilovers: BC Racing BR 8k/6k , RCE Tarmac 1s 400/400

Springs:
Springs might be cheaper but springs aren't paired for the struts and won't ever be a perfect match. On that same note springs are a fixed item with no room to play if things don't set right. The closest matched spring is imported JDM STI Pink springs since the Spec.B struts are JDM GT Rev.C struts. They are about $500 without shipping included and would come from Japan. Springs are cheaper.

(Edit) Possible springs: JDM STI Pinks , Ralliteks

Both require an alignment. I know I got a lot more in my head about this topic but I'm trying to process all my thoughts. Any feedback on these thoughts?

legacychick wrote:According to Perrin's website, they are adjustable. Also make sure the rear sway bar comes with some sort of bracket. I'm sure you've heard of some stock brackets that bent when they upgraded their sways. Perrin used to include them with the rear bar, but I'm not sure if they still do. AVO also makes them, but they are $80!

BTW, if you get coilovers, will you be selling your bilsteins? :wink:

Oh, and the Perrin rear sway bar is only $90 on Perrin's site right now!


I just double checked on the Perrin and they are adjustable as you mentioned so I stand corrected. Perrin recently stopped production of the 22mm rear sway bar (so I've been told) for the Legacy so if I go with a Perrin setup and wanted matching front and back I'd have to go with 25mm f & r. I was aware of the bracket issue but didn't know AVO also makes the replacement bracket.

As far as selling the bilsteins, I most likely would as I plan on having this car for many years. I'm also liking that $89.99 price on the rear sway bar from perrin. Very tempting!

Road Info:
For those wondering where this twisty road is it is Mastin Dr. between 79th and 83rd street in Overland Park. When you get closer to 83rd street it turns into 3 nice curves that are fun when going 30MPH if you follow the outside of the road. Go slow though during the normal day though as there is an elementary school at the entrance to where it starts the first curve when heading toward 83rd. It's only a 1/10 of a mile at best but it's still fun after a long days work.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby LeggyGT-Rs » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:59 am

DevXTech wrote:
if I go with a Perrin setup and wanted matching front and back I'd have to go with 25mm f & r.


Why do you think you want that? That is going to mess up the handling characteristics... you do not want your AWD car to be too tail happy. A Subaru is always going to have retard amounts of understeer; the motor is infront of the axles. not much you can do about that. Since the front end has to cope with the motor up front making the rear bar the same size will essentially make it feel larger; since there is less weight for it to deal with.

You dont want to go overkill, there are a couple people on here with super modded out Legacies, you may want to check and see how their cars feel.
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby ndwolfwood » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:55 am

currently i have BK strut tower braces F/R Cusco Sways F/R and Daiyama Coilovers(jdm)

my coilovers are adjustable, i have camber plates also im running 10k/8k springs also

my ride is fairly rough but it handles extremely well currently running on rota 18s

just something to think about, you feel every bump and every dip and rise in the road, but i like it that way
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Re: 2010 Spec.B Upgrades (Feedback Wanted)

Postby DevXTech » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:38 pm

LeggyGT-Rs wrote:
DevXTech wrote:
if I go with a Perrin setup and wanted matching front and back I'd have to go with 25mm f & r.


Why do you think you want that? That is going to mess up the handling characteristics... you do not want your AWD car to be too tail happy. A Subaru is always going to have retard amounts of understeer; the motor is infront of the axles. not much you can do about that. Since the front end has to cope with the motor up front making the rear bar the same size will essentially make it feel larger; since there is less weight for it to deal with.

You dont want to go overkill, there are a couple people on here with super modded out Legacies, you may want to check and see how their cars feel.

The reason I want bars that are closer together is due to the fact of wanting to try and balance out that overkill of understeer. The JDM Legacy Spec.B has 21mm front and 20mm back for swaybars if I remember correctly. This seems more acceptable. If I could I'd get 22mm front and 20mm back but that'd require me to interchange brands which I'd like to try not to have two different sway bar brands if I can avoid it. Perrin no longer makes a 22mm rear bar so I couldn't go with 25mm front and 22mm rear. I'm open to ideas about the best way to get a better handling car.

ndwolfwood wrote:currently i have BK strut tower braces F/R Cusco Sways F/R and Daiyama Coilovers(jdm)

my coilovers are adjustable, i have camber plates also im running 10k/8k springs also

my ride is fairly rough but it handles extremely well currently running on rota 18s

just something to think about, you feel every bump and every dip and rise in the road, but i like it that way


I'm not against feeling the bumps and imperfections of the road if I get a better handling car in return. I understand you can't have the best of both worlds.

Maybe some of you with coilovers could give me a ride in your car so I can feel the difference as I've never ridden in a car with them. I have heard from many people though that it all depends on your coilovers and how you set them up as to how harsh a ride really can be.

For those that autox, I'm wanting to get into this, is there any coilover that is more fitting than another for that type of usage?
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